Historical Yeshua vs so called historical Jesus: Family tomb of Yeshua lost tomb of Jesus
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Family tomb of Yeshua; or lost tomb of Jesus?
[This is my reply to a mailing list.]
It will be about the historical Ribi called Yehoshua, or in Aramaic Yeshua.
Shalom to you all,
My name is Anders Branderud and I live in Stockholm, Sweden; and I have been subscribing to this list and been reading it for several months.
This post is quite long and I hope that you all have patience reading it! The length is in order to demonstrate the claims made and in order to avoid any misunderstandings.
Prescott and Josh, Thanks for replying to the false charges against the Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel.
Regarding the oral Torah, this was mentioned in posts about the Netzarim:
Some of what is claimed to be oral Torah of today contradicts the most ancient real-world historical and logical mishpat [note 0a]-decision by the batei din. The Netzarim-position – which is completely in accordance with Torah – about oral Torah can be found on this link [note 0b].
I would like to comment on what Emmanuel claims about the Netzarim. His posts contain errors and thus it is very frustrating to read. It is not in accordance with Torah to spread false reports. It is a Torah-transgression.
I belong to the Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel led by Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben Dawid. Please note that there are also Christian groups calling themselves ‘Netzarim’, but they are unaffiliated with the Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel and are not legitimate Judaism, but Christian groups – i.e. they hold to Christian doctrines.
I was a very devoted Christian. For about five years I was a Pentecostal and for one year I was a Christian ‘Messianic’. I left Christianity when I realized that it contradicts Torah. The website of Netzarim gave me the facts and I soon after that left Christianity due to the facts that I found on that website, and the inconsistencies it demonstrated between Tan’’kh and “NT” (null-Testament – no validity in terms of doctrines, since it contradicts Tana’’kh). This happened about four years ago. I have never regretted my decision and I enjoy to love haSheim with all of my heart, psyche and my very all by doing my utmost to keep His mitzwot non-selectively.
Emanuel wrote: “Others quoted so many site or books proving that there is another history of
Yehoshua ,and when i search it this is not Yehoshua but still the other side of
history ofJESUS (“The tomb of Jesus” not Yehoshua) so i think this Netzarim or
others using a trick just like other xtian do(forgive me if im wrong).”
First of all, one must distinguish between the historical Ribi Yehoshua and the counterfeit image created by Christians. The historical person was a Ribi [a first century title in Israel] called Yehoshua. I will explain more about the distinction below.
[The numbers in brackets corresponds to notes at the end of this reply.]
The first century Ribi Yehoshua was called a Ribi – a title similar to ‘Rabbi’ – even by his opponents. That title implies that Ribi Yehoshua had semikhah – rabbinic ordination. Only Pharisees had this rabbinic ordination. This implies that Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee. Read further documentation on this link [note 1].
He never lost this good standing and his followers the Netzarim were also in good standing in the Pharisaic Jewish community [2].
This logically implies that they cannot have taught doctrines that are the antithesis to Torah. Doing this and they would have lost their good standing in the Pharisaic Jewish community and all evidence shows that neither Ribi Yehoshua nor the Netzarim did that [2].
This logically implies that the “gospel” of Matthew is heavily redacted, which is also confirmed by Scholars [3]. The “gospels” were never accepted by the Netzarim and are rejected by the Netzarim due to its anti-Torah doctrines.
It is completely wrong that the Netzarim uses deception and you also fail to make the distinction between the historical first century Ribi called Yehoshua and the counterfeit Christian anti-Torah image of Jesus – not an historical person. I’’ll forgive you first when you retract your statements and ask for forgiveness. You can’t just assume things about a Jewish group without studying about it. Please, stop spreading false reports!
We in the Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel are very clear and straight forward about our beliefs and they are found on our website. I have spent thousands of hours (no exaggeration) in doing my best to show to Christians that they are following a religion incompatible with haSheim‘s Instruction Manual – Torah; and that they must leave Christianity and need to start doing their utmost to keep Torah non-selectively if they want to serve haSheim. Netzarim provides the most effective approach in proving to Christians that they aren’t walking on the right path.
Many Christians claim that they want to follow the historical first century man Yehoshua of Nazareth, Unfortunately they have great misunderstandings of whom he was since they have put trust in the “NT”; and when we show that he was a human – a child to Miriam and Yoseiph – and not a “man-god”/”divine saviour”/”Gods Son”; and that he didn’t teach the anti-Torah null-Testament, but was a Pharisaic Jewish teacher who taught mankind to do their utmost to observe the mitzwot of Torah non-selectively, then several of them leave their idolatry and start to realize that they must observe Torah.
Anyone who loves Christians and wants to lead them out of their darkness should do the same!! If we love haSheim with all our heart, psyche and mind, as we are commanded to do in D’varim [‘Deuteronomy’] 6:4-9, then we want to help those whom He created, to guide them into His purpose for them, including to guide Christians out of idolatry and into an immensely meaningful relationship with haSheim.
The lost tomb of Jesus” is a misnomer. It is the family tomb of the Ribi called Yehoshua. See strong scientific evidence for these claims in the Talpiot Tomb-section of this page [4].
Emmanuel wrote:“ if that so , where did Netzarim got the name Yehoshua without believing New testament,”
My reply to that statement: “Uncovering the genuine historical Jew who was Ribi Yehoshua and his authentic teachings, requires identifying the authentic record, the earliest extant source documents that chronicle his life and true teachings. Only the earliest extant source documents help filter out subsequent — well-documented and extensive — redactions of the Roman gentile Hellenist pagans.”
Also these earliest extant source documents of the “gospel of Matthew” contain Hellenist redactions. However it is possible to filter out these redactions – which a Ribi in good standing in the Pharisaic Jewish community impossibly can have said – using a scientific logical methodology based on well documented premises. The only accurate account of Ribi Yehoshua’s teachings is Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu. This account is in accordance with the Torah – no additions and no subtractions [D’varim 13:1] Of course it is possible to filter out anti-Torah Hellenist Christian redactions which a Ribi can’t have said and reconstructing the teachings of Ribi Yehoshua without believing in the “NT” (null-Testament).
Emanuel wrote: “Netzarim a non xtian or a xtian it doesn’t matter to us because they are the same ,they are very wrong becoz the truth is in Hashem and no other as Isaiah 45;21 and in verse 22 stated ” LOOK UNTO ME AND YOU BE SAVE’” as simple as that no need of mediator or other saviour .”
No, Netzarim is the antithesis to Christian groups; just like all Jewish groups are the antithesis to Christian groups.
Yeshayahu says that haSheim is “EiI-Tzadiq and moshia (Savior), aiyin zulati (there is none except/besides/apart from Me). Yeshayahu makes it clear that the Savior (capital S) is, and can only be, none other than haSheim.
The text doesn’t say ‘Look unto me’. The text says ‘Peno elai’, turn toward/to Me. The question then lies in – how does one turn towards haSheim?
This is what Torah about how to turn towards haSheim and how to be forgiven by Him:
As stipulated in Devarim ["Deuteronomy"] 6:4-9,11:13-21 one is required to keep all of the directives of Torâh′ to one’s utmost—viz., “with all one’s heart, psyche and might [lit. "very"]“—”for the purpose of extending your days and the days of your children… like the days of the heavens above the earth” (i.e., eternal life). According to the Tan’’kh -Yekhezeqeil ["Ezekiel"] chapter 18 et.al – the Creator confer His atonement in His loving kindness to those turning away from their Torah-transgressions and (re)turning to doing their utmost to keep Torah non-selectively including mishpat.
More verses confirming this is D’varim chapter 26 and onwards, wa-Yiqra ['Leviticus'] 5:14-20 [nephesh - speaking of every individual, not only the nephesh of a Jew] and many more verses in Hebrew. No man has the authority to change these requirements - D’varim 4:2, 13:1 in Hebrew.
This is what Tana’’kh teaches and also what the Netzarim teaches about ‘salvation’. If we taught anything else we would be false neviyim – D’varim 13:1-6.
Anyone with knowledge of “NT” can see that this is the antithesis to what the Null Testament teaches.
Thanks for reading!
I wish you all a nice day! Shalom!!
[My additions:]
As was pointed out above, the tomb of Ribi Yehoshua is found.
Read more about the Talpiot Tomb at www.netzarim.co.il (“History Museum” (left menu); “Mashiakh”-section (top menu); scroll down to “Talpiot Tomb Complex”).
Notes to this post:
0a. Meaning of the word mishpat: http://www.torah-observant.com/oral-torah/torah-observance-oral-torah-talmud/
0b. About oral Torah: http://www.judaismtorah.net/torah/judaism-torah-oral-torah-and-logic/
1. Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee: http://www.yeshuatorah.net/yeshua-and-torah/rabbi-yeshua-torah-observant-pharisee/
[My website created in order to convince Christians that the must leave their anti-Torah-religion; and instead start doing their utmost to practise the directives of Torah non-selectively.]
2. See the well documented facts on http://www.netzarim.co.il (History Museum (left menu)); including references to books provided.
3. See quote from Scholars on the website of note 2; Glossaries; NT
4. http://www.netzarim.co.il/Museum/Sukkah03/Sukkah03.htm
Anders Branderud
Talpiot Tomb
Actually, the historical person from Nazareth was called Yehoshua, or Yeshua in Aramaic.
Rabbi Yeshua ha-Mashiach [‘the Messiah’] from Nazareth was called a ‘Rabbi’ even by his opponents. This title implies that Rabbi Yeshua ha-Mashiach had semikhah – rabbinic ordination. Only the Pharisees had this rabbinic ordination. This implies that Rabbi Yeshua was a Pharisee.
Actually he was called a ‘Ribi’ since that was the title used when he lived.
That statement can be very controversial for some. However, all evidence implies that he was a Pharisee. You will find more of this evidence in this article The historical Rabbi called Yeshua – the Messiah – was a Pharisee and his followers the Netzarim kept Torah
Have they found his tomb?
Quote: “A University of Toronto mathematician is lending new support to the controversial claim that an ancient burial tomb near Jerusalem once held the bones of J*esus of Nazareth and his family.”
“In a peer-reviewed article published last month in the prestigious Annals of Applied Statistics, Andrey Feuerverger places the odds of the 2,000-year-old tomb not belonging to the J*esusfamily at 1 in 1,600.”
“This figure is even more bullish than the 1-in-600 figure that Dr. Feuerverger calculated a year ago…” (Toronto Globe and Mail, 2008.04.22).
This is much more realistic than his first figure. Still, even this figure cannot have taken into account the Ya·aqov ossuary—which raised the original probability to about 1:30,000. Predicated on his newest calculation, that probability would correspondingly rise to 1:80,000 (1600÷600*30,000)—families. Yet, most scholars would put the total number of families in 1st-century Yәrushâlayim at less than 8,400 families. (The consensus of scholars is that Josephus and Tacitus exaggerated the numbers; that, based on water supplies, etc., the population was more likely around 50,000. Families were typically larger then. Assuming 6 persons/family yields a population slightly under 8,400 families.) Thus, it would still be unlikely to find another such tomb even in ten cities about the size of 1st-century Yәrushâlayim!!!
Beyond this, finding two families that each have these six names doesn’t entirely solve the problem. While the statisticians’ methods are correct, their premises are sometimes conservative to the point of inadequate. Even limiting possible names to Bauckham’s catalog is like claiming that if a name isn’t included in the membership list of a certain church then it’s impossible that a person by that name exists in that city at that time. Three generations of a typical family, at a typical rate of 6 children each and including wives, would have totaled around 100 members. What are the odds that, of those 100 family members (who could possibly each have had a unique name), the discovered inscribed ossuaries would be these six names instead of one of the other1,192,052,400 permutations of 6 names from the pool of names of 100 family members? Statisticians have factored in a very conservative set to represent perumutations that could have included (among the six ossuary inscriptions) some different family member or members (e.g., Daniel or a Tsiporah or a Devorah, etc.)—even though all six names were in the family. That name, or names—from a family having relatives with these six names—would have conflicted with the family of Ribi Yәhoshua.
To date, statisticians have not taken into account that spectral analysis placed the Ya·aqov ossuary in the Talpiot Tomb. Thus, the Ya·aqov ossuary coupled with a larger pool of name permutations fixes the probability closer to 1/80,000 x 1,192,052,400 = 1/95.3 trillion— 1:95,364,192,000,000— and that’s without taking into account the specificity (Ya·aqov + “son of Yoseiph” + “brother of Yeshua”) of the entire inscription being recently authenticated after earlier being decried—wrongly and hysterically–as a fake. This would raise the probability far higher. What is the probability that the single 1/95.3 trillion other family with those six names might have moved to some other city or country and been buried there? Or not have had a private burial tomb at all? What about the probability that the single, 1-out-of-95.3-trillion, other family with those six names might not have inscribed their ossuaries even if they had them? Even the existence of the hypothetical(!) 1-out-of-95.3-trillion “other possible family” is negligible to the point of virtually impossible.
Every time another eventuality like this is raised, the probability continues to climb exponentially. It is only now beginning to become apparent how ludicrous the religious hysterics of “impossible” have been. In fact, with every passing day and additional factor incorporated, it is the probability that the Talpiot Tomb isn’t that of Ribi Yәhoshua and his family that is becoming increasingly unlikely, untenable and closer to impossible.” [Source]
If you want to follow the historical Torah-observant human, Rabbi and Messiah called Yehoshua, I recommend you to study this blog: Follow Yeshua
Some more recommendations:
If you are a Christian, I recommend you to study this blog of mine: Follow Yeshua. If you are a Muslim I recommend you to study this blog of mine: Islam or Torah; if you agree on that the Torah is the Instruction manual of the Orderly Creator and that He obligates mankind of observe them [Proof] – I recommend you to start reading the blog posts below this article.
If you are an atheist or Agnostic I recommend you to start with reading this post:
I have made this first post sticky. Newer posts will be published below this post.